warlock build

[carrotofdoom]

Anyone know if leaps and bounds stacks with cat's grace? (thinking of making a dex-based weapon finesse character)

[ball lightning]

What is 'leaps and bounds'. If it is a spell efect then it wouldn't.

[carrotofdoom]

What is 'leaps and bounds'. If it is a spell efect then it wouldn't.

It's a warlock "spell-like" effect (some of which do stack).

If anyone actually knows, please reply.

[ball lightning]

Sorry, it doesn't. Spell Effects and spells don't usaully stack unless they say so.

[carrotofdoom]

Sorry, it doesn't. Spell Effects and spells don't usaully stack unless they say so.

Do you know that these (cat's grace and leaps and bounds) don't stack for a fact or are you just using inductive reasoning to infer that they don't?
__________________
This old NWN2 player is hoping to be a moderator
In the D&D V3.5 Rulebook spells do not stack, NWN2 might change this but i think not, it shouldn't be to hard to test, just get a Cats Grace potion and cast that spell.

When I ask if someone specifically knows this for a fact and not as a mere inference, replying without knowing it for a fact is really lame. Yes, I could probably test it pretty easily, but the whole point of this thread was to ask for knowledge of someone who had already tested it. Don't waste peoples time if you don't actually know. For someone who wants to be a moderator, you really need to learn to do your homework.

So, (one more time) if someone actually KNOWS, their knowledge would be appreciated.

[ball lightning]

In normal D&D V3.5 they don't, if they've changed it then yes, but 98% chance no. Look it up at Bioware.com.

[arathalion]

oh dear.

look. what he is saying makes sense, and yes, he could be wrong. however, you are not giving enough information, saying that it is a spell effect doesnt really help. what kind of bonus is it that the effect creates? what kind of effect does cats grace create? if they are different, then they stack, if not then the most probably do not.

[carrotofdoom]

1) Already thought since it was a spell like effect, it probably wouldn't stack. Wanted to see if anyone knew for sure. No help.

2) Asking if people specifically know for sure or are just guessing. Response: just guessing. I can guess myself. Request for someone who KNOWS FOR SURE. No help.

3) Being sent to search on another forum site. Barely help.

4) Having another person who doesn't know for sure chiming in his guesses. No help.

So, (one more time) if someone actually KNOWS, their knowledge would be appreciated.

[arathalion]

Alright.
I KNOW how the rules work. I didnt make any guesses. I asked for MORE INFORMATION so i could answer your question.

EDIT: ok, i checked cats grace. It gives an enhancement bonus.

[Sylvanas Kathar]

Just tried it, and no, it does not stack.

However, Dark One's Own Luck and the Blackguard Dark Blessing DO stack, so you can essentially get double your charisma bonus to your saves.

[carrotofdoom]

Just tried it, and no, it does not stack.

Thank you so much for actually trying. Shame. Didn't really think they would, but shame just the same.

However, Dark One's Own Luck and the Blackguard Dark Blessing DO stack, so you can essentially get double your charisma bonus to your saves.

That is largely the basis of the build. Presently it looks like this:

Human Bard8/Warlock2/Duelist8/Blackguard 2
Str: 12
Dex: 15
Con: 10
Int: 15
Wis: 10
Cha: 15

1: Bard1: Dodge, Two WeaponFighting
2: Wlk1: Dark one's own luck
3: Wlk2: Weapon Finesse, Leaps and Bounds (lasts 24 hrs and adds to tumble)
4: Bard2: +1 Dex
5: Bard3:
6: Bard4: Mobility
7: Bard5:
8: Bard6: +1 Cha
9: Bard7: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
10: Duelist1: Int to AC (make sure tumble and parry are 5)
11: Duelist2:
12: Duelist3: Power attack, +1 Str
13: Duelist4:
14: Duelist5:
15: Duelist6: Cleave
16: Blackguard 1: +1 Int (make sure hide is 5)
17: Blackguard 2: Dark blessing
18: Duelist7: Improved parry
19: Duelist8:
20: (probably) Bard 8: +1 Cha (depending on what equip I find)

Dump most of skills into parry and tumble. Should parry (+8 straight up from duelist levels) most attacks, return parrys with attacks, be hard to hit unarmored even if parry fails (especially with int. and bard buffs), saves are ref12/will11/for7 (+10 TO ALL with Cha buffed at 21).

Includes no items.

Still vulnerable to sneak attacks and Area effect damage (wish there was a decent way to work rogue in.)

Anyways, rough draft.

Feedback would be appreciated

[carrotofdoom]

over a hundred and forty views and no one has any opinions?

[arathalion]

alot of those views where probably before you posted the character. personally i dont like bards

[Fletchman1313]

Well, I don't like to speculate when it comes to things like this...

and I didn't get to test it... if I said anything, it would have been lame...

[carrotofdoom]

alot of those views where probably before you posted the character. personally i dont like bards

Wow! Way to play devil's advocate. Actually, only about 40 were before the build post.

Anyways, any particular reason you hate bards? Between inspirations, medium attack bonus, ability to use medium armor, and curse song/debuff, what's not to like?

[arathalion]

heh... the fact they dont do crap sept sing songs. the class is mostly useless... unless they fixed it in 3.5.... i know i guy that wanted to have a go with one... a few sessions in his part found an ogre... he started begging the ogre to eat him.

they are a boring class to play as you dont do anything, and cant do anything other than play music... yeah, some of there spells are ok. go play a divine caster. you want armor, go play a divine caster... i think the armor thing was an attempt to make people play them, as they used to have a tendency to get raped.

there is a question. why can they use medium armor? do they still suffer from the arcane spell check penalty for wearing it?

[Draconix]

This build has some serious inherent flaws:

At Bard lvl8 you will only know up to lvl3 Spells, and not counting any bonuses, you'd only be able to learn 3.

You'll be missing out on 3 fantastic Bard songs you get at higher levels with Perform. Plus you never took Curse Song as a feat, which is the BEST FEAT for any Bard build.

You'll also only do minimal damage with your Eldritch blasts as a Warlock. Though you can cast these indefinitely, they'll be completely worthless.

Parry is an almost useless skill in many people's eyes. Consider the wizard or sorc, who don't attack. How will you parry a blow that isn't there?

Instead of Power Attack, I'd take Cleave there, and then Greater Cleave. You kill more guys quicker, and it's a lifesaver when surrounded.

The only other thing is that you can't wear armor to get a lot of the Duelist bonuses. You'll miss out on a lot of the enchantments armor can give late in the game.

[Xae'an]

there is a question. why can they use medium armor? do they still suffer from the arcane spell check penalty for wearing it?

They don't suffer the penalty when wearing light armor, they need a feat to do the same in medium armor. In 3.5 edition they get 6 skill points per level and there spell list was changed slightly. In the P&P game they are great in all kinds of social interaction. NWN2 is more about combat however - and bards are still rather weak in direct confrontation. They are good at buffing allies however. The best use for the bard class in NWN2 is likely becoming a RDD - but need only 1 bard level for that.

For warlocks I think multiclassing even in PRCs is a bad choice. No PRC increases his invoker level - which is his most important weapon. CarrotofDoom's build would likely work better with rogue instead of bard levels if this isn't a major problem as far as roleplaying goes. The sneak attack damage is often more useful than some low level spells.

[carrotofdoom]

This build has some serious inherent flaws:


At Bard lvl8 you will only know up to lvl3 Spells, and not counting any bonuses, you'd only be able to learn 3.

I only really want a couple of levels of spells for self buffs/debuffing. Primarly a melee character with a few spells.

You'll be missing out on 3 fantastic Bard songs you get at higher levels with Perform. Plus you never took Curse Song as a feat, which is the BEST FEAT for any Bard build.
Believe me, I looked long and hard for a way to work in curse song. I might drop Imp 2 weap fighting for it, but it's a hard loss to take.

You'll also only do minimal damage with your Eldritch blasts as a Warlock. Though you can cast these indefinitely, they'll be completely worthless. Couldn't care less about eldritch blasts. Just picking up the levels for the "permanent" (1/day, 24hrs duration) bonuses to saving throws and dex/tumble.

Parry is an almost useless skill in many people's eyes. Consider the wizard or sorc, who don't attack. How will you parry a blow that isn't there?
Whoever thinks that parry is useless needs to be taken out and smacked upside the head. Seriously, knockdown and parry and pretty much tied as THE melee abilities in the game.
From NWN2WIKI:
"NWN2 Implementation

For arguments sake, and to make it all easy to calculate I'll come up with two characters. Parry skill user = ranger 20 dex oriented, attacker = FTR 20 str oriented. Ranger dex=FTR str.

Parry skill roll=d20 + 23 (maxed parry skill) + dex mod - 2(light armor check penalty) = d20 + 21 + dex mod the parry DC=incoming blow=d20 + 20(bab of ftr) + 4(weapon) +2(wep focus or grt wep focus) + str mod = d20 + 26 + str mod

You will also find lots of +5 or +8 parry items all around the OC, and custum created content as well I hope so. Assuming then, that the fighters str mod = dex mod of the ranger, and that they both roll exaclty the same on the d20, then we come to the conclusion, that a character with maxed parry will avoid being hit 50%+ of the time, which is balanced."
After the +8 for duelist levels and say a +5 parry items, It jumps pretty drastically in favor of the defender. That's also against a PURE fighter. Against a more common BaB of 16, it becomes VERY likely that all but the first hit will be parried.

Already mentioned a vulnerability to ranged/area effect spells, but hey, no build is perfect. With decent saving throws, hopefully in PnP, I could either close the distance and outdamage non divine casters or just grab a bow and with five attacks/round (selfhaste) and crazy dex/bard bonuses, outdamage any 10D6/save for half spell they could lob at me.

Seriously thinking of dropping bard and going with water and air domain cleric (just for evasion), but I'm not sure how to swing the Wis requirements.

Instead of Power Attack, I'd take Cleave there, and then Greater Cleave. You kill more guys quicker, and it's a lifesaver when surrounded.
Power attack is a prerequisite for cleave.

The only other thing is that you can't wear armor to get a lot of the Duelist bonuses. You'll miss out on a lot of the enchantments armor can give late in the game.
Parry baby, parry. Build is built around selfbuffs, parry, and good saving throws. Besides, I can use amulets, and belts, and headbands, and rings, (maybe even bracers). Several bonuses to AC. Not too worried about AC, and most enchantments are gettable other ways.


All good points, though. If you see a better way of doing similar things, I love to hear it. Your comments are appreciated though.

Thank you.


For warlocks I think multiclassing even in PRCs is a bad choice. No PRC increases his invoker level - which is his most important weapon. CarrotofDoom's build would likely work better with rogue instead of bard levels if this isn't a major problem as far as roleplaying goes. The sneak attack damage is often more useful than some low level spells.

Just picking up the levels for the "permanent" bonuses to Saving throws and Dex. Especially at low levels, at +4 bonus the Dex with weapon finesse is massive.

As for rogue, it would cause me to lose all the self buffing abilities. Not too bad in actual game, but in PnP, it would be near suicide (especially with all the druids running around immune to sneak attack)

I did get one suggestion to trade bard for water/air cleric and am looking through the spells. Many look good, but I'm not sure I can swing the Wis requirements without losing some serious bonuses.


Anyways, thanks for the thoughts.

More feedback would always be appreciated.

[Grigori]

I'm working on a Warlock build right now that has 16 levels of warlock, 1 level of barbarian, 2 levels of fighter, and either one level of NW9 or one more level of warlock... more to come...

Running into a couple of snags with feat progression, but if all works out properly, I should get an extra two feats and a few more hit points by taking the two levels of fighter and then another feat and more extra hitpoints by taking the barbarian level at second level... I'm not sure if it's screwing up the warlock invocation progression yet. I'll work on it a bit more and get back with you...

(for those of you interested in why I took barbarian, the 10% move bonus, martial weapons, and medium armor additions to my skillset plus the addition of tumble and listen make for some nice progression bonuses with the skillset... fighter was added for the bonus feats at first and second fighter level along with the extra health and the three levels of fortitude save bonuses from all three tank levels should help tremendously in the final product... the inner argument is another level of warlock or a level of NW9 for the aura buffs for the party.... NW9 would also give me access to the search skill and another little boost to health and I could wear that sexy NW9 armor...)

((I've always wondered why they made that armor a light armor instead of making a robe version for normal casters and non-armor wearing party members... they pretty much screwed monks, mages, sorcerers out of any NW9 armor and the other tank type classes don't really benefit from it either because there are no armored versions of the NW9 armor with a tunic... kinda silly if you hate the NW9 class or armor, but I like it so it's an issue for me...))

[D.0.a]

Barbarians don't get tumble. If you want the NW9 tunic, why not just put ranks in UMD (the warlocks best skill)?

[Epirote]

Please refrain from bumping up old and inactive threads. This is your first and last warning.

[TGSMR]

1) Already thought since it was a spell like effect, it probably wouldn't stack. Wanted to see if anyone knew for sure. No help.

2) Asking if people specifically know for sure or are just guessing. Response: just guessing. I can guess myself. Request for someone who KNOWS FOR SURE. No help.

3) Being sent to search on another forum site. Barely help.

4) Having another person who doesn't know for sure chiming in his guesses. No help.

So, (one more time) if someone actually KNOWS, their knowledge would be appreciated.

Why are you waisting your time? Just to get the last word? Load the game and cast them and you'll see. lol.

[Epirote]

Please refrain from answering to bumped up inactive posts threads. This is your first and last warning.