Thief and a Cleric at the same time

[cal1s]

Hello fellow Adventurer,

I wanted to know what your thoughts about playing a Thief and at the same time a Cleric, like for example a Follower of Mask, is.

I some what very much like the idea of playing such a Character.
Does any one of you have experiences with such Characters?

Looking forward hearing from you.

Cheers,

cal1s

[wandaien]

not a bad idea, honestly. you doing an equal rogue(10)cleric(10) multiclass? or some other variation of lvls? 10-10 would be the best way to maximize both classes, because if you go any other way, you would be concentrating more on one class than the other. Eitherway, is good for groups, you can heal decently AND pick locks/disable traps...let the companions do all the fighting and damage taking...lol

[lurchman]

That's really wild. Like total opposites. You could end up with a personality complex. One of these days I'll have to try that. I would think it would be a tough one to keep your alignment balanced right.

[cal1s]

hehe,
yes the concept could come up with huge problems. but i will try that.

you doing an equal rogue(10)cleric(10) multiclass?

yes, that would be best imho. i just dont know what class to choose in the beginning and have no idea on how to level up my character further ... any ideas?

cheers

[TheLemming]

I suggest to level rogue first - until level 4 - you'll greatly extend your skills and have a lot of useful abilities - then I would go for 16 levels of cleric.

but this is just my humble opinion ;)

(btw this is almost a book character named Erevis Cale) - a rogue who moved along the path of mask's clergy - (even though he was a formidable fighter, too) - http://www.candlekeep.com/library/articles/erevis.htm

[cal1s]

hey mate. wow, thank you for that info. thats really great. didnt know there was a famous character in Faerûn who chose to pick locks and disarm traps and at the same time go and pray to his patron deity for divine spells .. very nice found!

cheers
I suggest to level rogue first - until level 4 - you'll greatly extend your skills and have a lot of useful abilities - then I would go for 16 levels of cleric.

but this is just my humble opinion ;)

(btw this is almost a book character named Erevis Cale) - a rogue who moved along the path of mask's clergy - (even though he was a formidable fighter, too) - http://www.candlekeep.com/library/articles/erevis.htm

[wandaien]

I would think it would be a tough one to keep your alignment balanced right.

alignment wouldn't be a problem, as clerics can be of any alignment, good or evil, unlike paladins.... so you could have say a chaotic evil cleric/rogue..lol

and one thing i've noticed that if you stray too much in your alignments, and end up something else that your current diety does not support, it will give you the option to change dieties at next level up.

and it really depends on how many of each class to go with.. rogues get alot of bonus feats at later levels for dodging and sneak attack bonus dmg, and with the right cleric spells even low lvl ones will make you a force to be reconded with..

my personal main character is a 13 ranger 1 divine champion... i plan on making the rest of the levels divine champion as well.. with camo(being able to run outside in stealth and all the other ranger abilities), weapon specialization katana, favored enemies: demon, human, outsider...divine champion: lay on hands, smite infidel, divine wrath... this guy will be a beast with the right equiptment.. and alignment or diety isn't a problem either..although it helps being a good alignment, as you get bonus rolls for extra dmg dealt to anyone not of your aligntment/diety i think, need to research this more....

[cal1s]

problem is i need high wisdom and at the same time high dexterity ... if my wisdom is too low i won't be able to cast divine spells properly ...

if i do the first 4 levels rogue i need to focus on dexterity ... i should have at least 18 dex ... later on i will need 18 wis ...

any tips on how to go?

[wandaien]

when you create the character, you can custom imput your points into stats.. concentrate on your wisdom and dex.. and your other points can be whatever as long as they are above 10..

class selection, i'd say start out as a cleric... and can concentrate on rogueness later, since you get neeshka really early in the game..but also know you are pretty much lvl 4 before you even leave the harbor, so it could go either way... and gear will balance out any remaining points you want in str/dex/wis/cha.... charisma is another one, higher charisma/wisdom means more healed per spell or healers kit.

[ghosthunter]

Being a lvl 10 cleric, you'll only be able to cast lvl 5 spells. So I wouldn't place WIS above 15. Put the rest in DEX and balance the other stats accordingly.

[blix]

I'm quite a rogue-fan myself and have been thinking about playing a divine-rogue too. I came up with this one, haven't played it yet, but it's been tested in the CBC2 character calculator and it's ok. I want to save it for a multiplayer experience :rolleyes:

The main reason I want a cleric-rogue is for buffing AB, which is important for my rogue to get sneak attacks to hit tougher foes, and secondary to be able to help the rest of the party as a healer and buffer. I want him to be a rogue-character, not a cleric-meleer with some rogue skill-dumps. I pick the strength-domain. This gives him access to Divine power as a level 3 spell. The second domain I pick is earth that makes him more durable (gives him toughness-feat for free) and the nice stoneskin spell at level 4. To take benefit of my domains my cleric must be a level 4 caster, so the split would be Rogue 13/Cleric 7. This split gives him 7d6 sneak and 2 rogue special abilities. Preferably the nasty crippling strike and improved evasion. I choose to go with a finessable weapon and cleric gives shield-proficiency so I ended up choosing single rapier and shield.

Race: Thiefling, any alignment
STR: 14, DEX: 17 (22), CON: 14, WIS: 14, INT: 16, CHA: 6
Feats: Luck of heroes, Weapon finesse, Dodge, Mobility, Spring attack, Weapon focus: Rapier. The level 18 feat I have not decided yet but I think practiced spellcaster would be smartest (any suggestions?)
Rogue feats: Crippling strike and Improved evasion.
* The investment into spring attack is to be completly immune to attacks of opportunity. Being able to move around freelyand quickly and flanking foes thus dealing lots of sneak attacks.

I take 4 levels rogue first to have the evasion and uncanny dodge asap. Those are vital to complement my dexterity. And off cource being a good rogue from start is actually the main point with the character.
Then I take 5 level of cleric to become a level 3 caster.
Level 10-15 progress in rogue to get the crippling strike.
Then 6th cleric level to dump skills in spellcraft.
Another couple of rogue-levels
The 7th cleric level at level 19 for the last spellcraft dump. I need 22 ranks to have 25 effective ranks giving me +5 saves vs spells
Round off at level 20 with the last rogue-level to max out my skills and get improved evasion.

Skillpoints: 211. Should be enough and I will spend them making a good rogue. (Hide, Move silently, UMD, Tumble, Disable device, Open locks, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Spellcraft, Concentration?, Crafting and trapping)

Spellcasting (levels 0,1,2,3,4): 6,6,5,3,2
BAB: 14
At level 20 he will have a base AB of 21/16/11
With leather armor and a large shield AC is 23 and he is above average durable with a maximum HP of 194.
Saves are incredible for a rogue. 12 fort, 17 reflex and 12 will + 5 vs spells (yippi :D )
Now start get items and buff up :)

I'm also considering a Shadowdancer-level for Hide in plain sight. This kind of makes him more a master of stealth. This must be traded for Improved evasion and the 7th dice of sneak damage. Another option, sacrificing the same, is taking 8 cleric levels. Gains him one more level 3 and 4 spell, +1 BAB and +1 fort and will saves. Hmm??

[btcentral]

blix - sounds like you've thought it out already, if I were you i'd go for it - sounds interesting, be sure to let us know how it goes.

The Shadowdancer level to get hide in plain site is very useful - I made a Chaotic Neutral Rougue (10), Shadow Theif of Amn (5), Shadowdancer (5) and really like that combination, you get to make your own choices, along with it's abilities, and to have the freedom of theiving, being stealthy when needed (great for scouting! etc. - Activate stealth mode, get out your Short Bow take out obvious enemies from afar :p)

Tip for poor people: Pickpocket a merchant, they have *a lot* of money and unless you're going to spend hours pickpocketing... they are unlikely to run out of gold.

[ADnD'R]

I'd be more interested in knowing what Deity the character serves. This would (or should) also guide a character's choice of domains. Mask isn't likely to promote strength or earth (perhaps), much more likely to provide Trickery and Luck. Also, that Greater Invisibility might come in handy sometimes. Of course Mask isn't the only choice, other good thieving gods would be perhaps Tymora, Waukeen (for the neutral or even lawful "security expert"), Brandobaris, or, really almost any non Lawful deity.

Of course I'm talking about the RP side of things, in SP they didn't seem to provide a lot of deity-hooks in the storyline ( my monk, an Ilmatari and follower of the Broken God, was pretty much ignored by the cleric of that first stronghold he traveled to). In online PW's (the good ones) who you follow would have be taken into consideration . . . .but we're just talking powerbuild, here, hokay :)

Don't bother with Spring Attack. Its really only useful if you have a low Tumble, or are desiring Whirlwind Attack or Weapon Master. If you're a rogue you should maximize your Tumble at every opportunity, so you're not going to get AOO's anyway. Also,with terrific saves, you might reconsider Luck of Heroes for another feat, although the newer version does grant that +1 AC I guess.

Make sure not to ignore Use Magic Device - its one of the great rogue perks.

Able Learner - nearly every one of my character takes this feat. If you're going to have large level differences between classes it might come in handy. Originally, Obsidian said they weren't going to allow skill dumping but it looks like they backed off of that.

Lastly, you might consider taking dual weaponry feats; to optimize your rogue's Sneak Attack (and especially Crippling Strike) you'll likely want to flank as much as you can, even breaking out of melee to circle around and get 'em again. If you got a good meatshield like Khelgar or Casavir that would be awesome.

[Bardess]

Hey, I used to like the idea of a rogue-cleric too. Back when I was going looney about Baldur's Gate (what am I saying, I'm still absolutely in love with BG). But I remember like only one race could be it, like, half-orc or gnome, I don't remember which. Things work differently with multiclassing in NWN, though.
But by mixing these two classes, would you ever be able to cast spells such as heal? Doubt it. Though it would be interesting nevertheless.

[blix]

Thx for the feedback.

I have primarly roleplay in mind with this rogue. I want to use this build in a multiplayer roleplay session, but I have not been thinking about the deities-aspect yet.

I've always taken Spring attack with my rogues and never tried if only tumble could do the job. That free 3 feats!! if I dont go for the shadowdancer variant. Me like :D

quote rules:
Tumbling past opponents without prompting an attack of opportunity is a DC of 15. Tumbling through a space occupied by your opponent is a DC of 25.

DC is pretty easy yes, thats about 10 ranks + my dex modifier. I should be 95% immune at level 8-10 approx (a roll of 1 always misses)

My rogue tactics and the way I play them in combat, a mix of 'never stand still and sneak-flank all' swashbukcler-melee and stealth, requires AoO-immunity because this tactic constantly exposes him to AoO. If tumble does the job, I will use the 3 feats to light mace-dual-wield him with TWF, ITWF and GTWF giving him 6 attacks instead of 3. I didnt like the consept of a rogue with a shield anyway. The loss of AB due to dualwielding will probably make me go for the R12/C8 variant.

I usually take HIPS on my pure stabber/silent killer rogues. The once with max sneak attack and pure stealth tactics. My favourite stabber is R19/SD1. This rogue is more like a divine combat-rogue using my speciality, the swashbukler-melee.

And yes, if dev's disallow skilldumping, Able learner will be a must in almost any bulid I agree. My divine rogue doesn't need it at this moment I think. Maybe I take another background trait, well :rolleyes:

To Bardess:
The earliest a cleric can cast the heal spell is level 9 if they pick the healing-domain. So you could actually make a 6d6 sneaking rogue with crippling strike being able to cast heal yes :)

[ADnD'R]

Thx for the feedback.

I've always taken Spring attack with my rogues and never tried if only tumble could do the job. That free 3 feats!! if I dont go for the shadowdancer variant. Me like :D


I meant Spring Attack alone, if you meant not taking Dodge,Mobility, and Spring Attack. I'd still strongly consider taking the first two, because they're AC-enhancing feats, in particular Mobility, for the rare times when your tumble fails. Or not. After all, your armor class hardly comes into play if you're spending your time dodging and flanking.

[blix]

Well. I have now played my cleric-rogue, and yes that was fun. For fans of rogue's something simular is indeed very recommended. Maybe wait until you can play in a more rogue-friendly module or campaign, in case it will be even more fun. She partied with one wood elf ranger-dual wield meleer, Ranger 12/Fighter 8 and one Sun-elf pure wizard and they worked well together.

Alhuria is a worshipper of Gond, god of all smiths, so she took the craft wondrous item-feat to fill the roleplay-aspect of it. With 8 cleric levels she could craft those nice +8 items for the party in the end. She was also the diplomat and did the talking. The cleric buffs could buff her AB +11 (with items AB40). That made her sneak- and cripp-attacks hit VERY frequently. The practised spellcaster feat was taken by the known debug, as for now it is not available at level up. It can be swapped for 1 more two-weapon fighting feat or Craft magical arms an armor.
This is the final building as played:

Alhuria. Worshipper of Gond
Thiefling, female, Chaotic neutral, Rogue(12), Cleric(8)
Cleric Domains: Strength, Earth
Deity: Gond
STR: 14
DEX: 17(22)
CON: 14
WIS: 14
INT: 16
CHA: 6
Racial feats: Darkvision, Infernal Resistance, Resist Fire, Resist Cold, Resist Electrical

Lvl 01: Rogue(1): Background: Wild Child, Spellcasting Prodigy, {Trapfinding}
Lvl 02: Rogue(2): {Evasion}
Lvl 03: Rogue(3): Weapon Finesse
Lvl 04: Rogue(4): DEX+1, {Uncanny Dodge}, (DEX=18)
Lvl 05: Cleric(1): {Turn Undead, Toughness}
Lvl 06: Cleric(2): Practiced spellcaster
Lvl 07: Rogue(5)
Lvl 08: Cleric(3): DEX+1, (DEX=19)
Lvl 09: Rogue(6): Two-Weapon Fighting
Lvl 10: Rogue(7)
Lvl 11: Cleric(4)
Lvl 12: Cleric(5): DEX+1, Craft Wondrous Items, (DEX=20)
Lvl 13: Rogue(8): {Improved Uncanny Dodge}
Lvl 14: Rogue(9)
Lvl 15: Rogue(10): Impr. Two-Weapon Fighting, Crippling Strike
Lvl 16: Cleric(6): DEX+1, (DEX=21)
Lvl 17: Cleric(7)
Lvl 18: Rogue(11): WF (Light Mace)
Lvl 19: Cleric(8)
Lvl 20: Rogue(12): DEX+1, (DEX=22)

Unbuffed stats:
Hitpoints: 196
BAB: 15
Main hand: 20/15/10, 1d6 +2 (20 x2)
Off hand: 20/15, 1d6 +1 (20 x2)
Sneak Attack: 6d6
AC with leather armor: 20
Saving Throws (Fortitude/Reflex/Will): 12/16/12
Detailed Spell Casting (Level 0-4): Cleric: 6 • 6 • 5 • 5 • 3

Skillpoints: 205
Craft Trap: 7(10), Diplomacy: 18(16), Disable Device: 20(25), Hide: 23(32), Move Silently: 23(30), Open Lock: 14(20), Search: 11(14), Set Trap: 12(20), Spellcraft: 22(25), Spot: 13(15), Tumble: 20(27), Use Magic Device: 22(20)

Skillpoints level by level:
Lvl 01 (Ro): Craft Trap 4(4), Diplomacy 4(4), Disable Device 4(4), Hide 4(4), Move Silently 4(4), Open Lock 4(4), Search 4(4), Set Trap 4(4), Spot 4(4), Tumble 4(4), Use Magic Device 4(4)
Lvl 02 (Ro): Craft Trap 1(5), Diplomacy 1(5), Disable Device 1(5), Hide 1(5), Move Silently 1(5), Open Lock 1(5), Search 1(5), Set Trap 1(5), Spot 1(5), Tumble 1(5), Use Magic Device 1(5)
Lvl 03 (Ro): Craft Trap 1(6), Diplomacy 1(6), Disable Device 1(6), Hide 1(6), Move Silently 1(6), Open Lock 1(6), Search 1(6), Set Trap 1(6), Spot 1(6), Tumble 1(6), Use Magic Device 1(6)
Lvl 04 (Ro): Craft Trap 1(7), Diplomacy 1(7), Disable Device 1(7), Hide 1(7), Move Silently 1(7), Open Lock 1(7), Search 1(7), Set Trap 1(7), Spot 1(7), Tumble 1(7), Use Magic Device 1(7)
Lvl 05 (Cl): Diplomacy 1(8), Spellcraft 4(4)
Lvl 06 (Cl): Diplomacy 1(9), Spellcraft 4(8)
Lvl 07 (Ro): Diplomacy 1(10), Hide 3(10), Move Silently 3(10), Tumble 3(10), Use Magic Device 1(8)
Lvl 08 (Cl): Diplomacy 1(11), Spellcraft 2(10), Save 2
Lvl 09 (Ro): Disable Device 3(10), Hide 2(12), Move Silently 2(12), Tumble 2(12), Use Magic Device 4(12)
Lvl 10 (Ro): Diplomacy 1(12), Disable Device 3(13), Hide 1(13), Move Silently 1(13), Open Lock 3(10), Tumble 1(13), Use Magic Device 1(13)
Lvl 11 (Cl): Diplomacy 1(13), Spellcraft 4(14)
Lvl 12 (Cl): Diplomacy 2(15), Spellcraft 1(15), Save 2
Lvl 13 (Ro): Diplomacy 1(16), Hide 3(16), Move Silently 3(16), Tumble 3(16), Use Magic Device 3(16)
Lvl 14 (Ro): Diplomacy 1(17), Disable Device 3(16), Hide 1(17), Move Silently 1(17), Open Lock 3(13), Tumble 1(17), Use Magic Device 1(17)
Lvl 15 (Ro): Diplomacy 1(18), Disable Device 2(18), Hide 1(18), Move Silently 1(18), Open Lock 1(14), Search 3(10), Tumble 1(18), Use Magic Device 1(18)
Lvl 16 (Cl): Spellcraft 4(19), Save 1
Lvl 17 (Cl): Spellcraft 1(20), Save 5
Lvl 18 (Ro): Disable Device 2(20), Hide 3(21), Move Silently 3(21), Spot 3(10), Tumble 2(20), Use Magic Device 3(21)
Lvl 19 (Cl): Spellcraft 2(22), Save 3
Lvl 20 (Ro): Hide 2(23), Move Silently 2(23), Search 1(11), Set Trap 5(12), Spot 3(13), Use Magic Device 1(22)