Orphaned Churches

[Zousha]

I think everyone here can agree that the Spellplague was not merely an upheaval in how magic was used, but a time of divine upheaval as well. Many gods, most prominently Helm, Mystra and Tyr are dead. Other deities, like Sehanine Moonbow and Talos were revealed to be other gods in disguise (Selune and Gruumsh respectively). And of course there was the uproar in the church of Lathander when the Risen Sun Heresy was finally vindicated, with Lathander becoming Amaunator again.

My question is, how have the mortals of Faerun handled all this divine turmoil. A number of church's deities have died, several have changed dramatically, and the vibe given by the FRPG and FRCG seems to be that somehow the churches have already settled down within the century that followed this turmoil. What happens to an FR church when their deity dies is killed? How does a church handle their deity changing alignment, like Hoar's change from Lawful Neutral to Evil when he started serving Bane, or when their deity is revealed to be someone else, like Talos when he revealed he was really Gruumsh. I can't imagine that the fallout from events like these only took a century to sort themselves out!

[cal1s]

wait a minute ... helm and tyr are DEAD?
WTF .. how .. and when did that happen?

in 4ED?

[Zousha]

You didn't know? In The Grand History of the Realms, near the end of the chronology, and shortly before Mystra's murder, Siamorphe and Tyr broke up, and so Sune proposed Tyr and Tymora start dating. Helm acted as Tymora's chaperone and a go-between for the two. For some reason, Tyr started suspecting that Helm and Tymora were seeing each other behind his back (rumor has it that Cyric was responsible for this suspicion). Tyr challenged Helm to a duel of honor and Helm had no choice but to accept. Tyr killed Helm, Tymora broke up with him, and Ilmater left the Triad.

Some time later, Tyr defended the northern reaches of Faerun from a demonic and incursion and was killed in battle. His longsword, Justicebringer, is stuck into a stone on Mount Celestia, the words "Justice never sleeps" or something like that carved into the stone. Since then, Torm has been promoted to a greater god to fill the position.

From what I hear, Tyr was actually supposed to be in 4e, but the fan backlash at him for Helm's death was so strong they decided to write him out too.

[cal1s]

no, actually i didn't know.
so in 4ED there is no tyr and no helm?

thats really odd .. why are they doing this?

[JohnSmith]

One canonical Spellplague I know of took place before the events of BG1+2 (which are the aftermath of that Spellplague.) According to that piece of lore as I remember it, while playing through games like BG1+2, IWD1+2 and NWN1+2, AO got pissed of with the God's and told them to roam Torril as powerful but mortal heroes, Mystra got killed, but later resurrected, hence there was a lot of wild magic or no magic at all for some for a while. Well, the idea was that the gods should experience what it was like to be mortal and many of them did good things for their believers. For example, there was a Gnome god who brought the secret of the powder and many other marvelous machines to the Gnomes. Baal, decided to just plant a lot of kids and that's what the BG series is all about. Now, another such spellplague is upon us. Many major gods will bite the grass, and will be replaced or not, we shall see. I seem also to remember some 2E lore, where befor Myrkul (?), Jergal was the Death God for a while. :cool:

[cal1s]

yes you are refering to the Time of Troubles.
helm killed mystra back then. as far as i know mystra wasnt resurrected though. midnight took her portfolio and renamed herself.

but all those events were long ago. what made me wonder was that helm's and tyr's death cannot be long ago. personally i find it quite crucial that such major deities are dead from one minute to the next.

they might be replaced by some other gods or maybe even mortals will claim their portfolio, just like during the Time of Troubles.

I still wonder though what source you refer to Zousha? Is there a new forgotten realms source book out that i missed?
One canonical Spellplague I know of took place before the events of BG1+2 (which are the aftermath of that Spellplague.) According to that piece of lore as I remember it, while playing through games like BG1+2, IWD1+2 and NWN1+2, AO got pissed of with the God's and told them to roam Torril as powerful but mortal heroes, Mystra got killed, but later resurrected, hence there was a lot of wild magic or no magic at all for some for a while. Well, the idea was that the gods should experience what it was like to be mortal and many of them did good things for their believers. For example, there was a Gnome god who brought the secret of the powder and many other marvelous machines to the Gnomes. Baal, decided to just plant a lot of kids and that's what the BG series is all about. Now, another such spellplague is upon us. Many major gods will bite the grass, and will be replaced or not, we shall see. I seem also to remember some 2E lore, where befor Myrkul (?), Jergal was the Death God for a while. :cool:

[Zousha]

no, actually i didn't know.
so in 4ED there is no tyr and no helm?

thats really odd .. why are they doing this?

Yes, in 4e both Tyr and Helm are dead. Torm has been promoted to a greater deity in their place.

Other changes were made as well. Talos no longer exists, because it was recently revealed that he was actually the human face of Gruumsh. Same with Sehanine Moonbow, who was revealed to be the elven aspect of Selune. And with Aerdrie Faeyna, who was revealed to be the fey aspect of Akadi. And also Akadi, Grumbar, Kossuth, Isthisia (sp?) and Ubtao were never actually deities at all, but actually Primordials, powerful elemental beings who molded the world before the gods gave it order and permanency. Most primordials are beings of entropy and destruction, but the afformentioned five actually pulled a Prometheus and sided with the gods, which is why they were allowed to masquerade as them for fo long, and why they still have worshipers today.

Bane didn't suffer TOO much of a blow. The Zhentarim has been crippled though, since Fzoul Chembryl was killed and is now a divine exarch (a sort of demigod) in Bane's service.

Lathander surprised everyone when The Risen Sun heresy (a belief that Lathander is actually a reincarnation of the old sun god Amaunator and will be changing back soon) was proven to be true. The head Sunmaster (whose name escapes me at the moment) performed a miracle that created a miniature second sun over his hometown, and shortly after that, Lathander revealed that he really was Amaunator, and took his true form.

The biggest blow was obviously to the magic department. As you probably know, it was Mystra's death that triggered all the Spellplague problems, but she wasn't the only casualty. Azuth fell from Dweomerheart into the Nine Hells, where Asmodeus ate him and stole his divine essence to make himself a god in his own right. Velsharoon fell too, and if my sources are correct, crashlanded in Rashemen and died on impact. Savras was likely killed when Dweomerheart imploded.

According to some of the novels, Eilistraee is dead as well. She was posessing the body of one of the Seven Sisters and trying to reason with The Lady Penitent, who cut her down in anger believing her to be Lolth in disguise. Eilistraee didn't recover, but those drow that followed her were welcomed into Arvandor by Corellon (who seems to have dropped his last name), and they were changed from drow to "dark elves", elves with dark brown skin and black hair. Drizzt was not among these elves, so he's stuck as a drow.

Presumably part of the reason why they did this was to cut down on the massive glut of deities. While the Tyr/Helm story came from one of the more recent books (The Grand History of the Realms), some of it also comes from the Forgotten Realms Players Guide and Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide. The rest of the information is mostly stuff I've picked up in the Forgotten Realms subsection of the Wizards of the Coast boards.

[cal1s]

very heavy information there.
personally i must admit right now, that i don't like the changes.
but then again, i do not have any new source book. my latest book of information is the forgotten realms campaign setting 3.5.

so is there already one for 4ED released?

[Zousha]

I think there was a list somewhere on those forums of just what changes happened to the gods. I'll see if I can find it.

The Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide and Players Guide were some of the first 4e releases after the Corebooks were out.

EDIT: Found it!

There's one big pantheon, which includes the nonhuman gods. Here's a list of the various divine dominions with the gods contained within. The divine ranks are Greater God, God, and Exarch. If a god is listed behind a - that means that they're an Exarch in service to the god they're listed under.

ARVANDOR
Corellon Larethian (Greater God)
- Deep Sashelas
- Erevan Ilesere
- Fenmarel Mestarine
- Labelas Enoreth
- Shevarash
- Solonor Thelandira
Angharradh (God)
Garl Glittergold (God)
- Baervan Wildwanderer
- Baravar Cloakshadow
- Callarduran Smoothhands

BANEHOLD
Bane (Greater God)
- Abbathor
- Fzoul Chembryl
- Hoar
- Hruggek
- Maglubiyet
Loviatar (God)
Tiamat (God)

CELESTIA
Torm (Greater God)
Bahamut (God)
Ilmater (God)

THE DEEP WILDS
Silvanus (Greater God)
- Malar
Auril (God)
Mielikki (God)
- Shiallia
Umberlee (God)

THE DEMONWEB PITS
Lolth (Greater God)

THE DISMAL CAVERNS
Ghaunadaur (Greater God)

THE DISMAL CAVERNS
Moradin (Greater God)
- Clangeddin Silverbear
- Dugmaren Brighthammer
- Marthammor Duin
- Thard Harr
- Vergadain
Berronar Truesilver (God)

ETERNAL SUN
Amaunator (Greater God)
- Siamorphe
Waukeen (God)

THE FUGUE PLANE
Kelemvor (Greater God)
- Jergal

GATES OF THE MOON
Selûne (Greater God)
Sune (Greater God)
- Lliira
- Sharess
Tymora (God)

GREEN FIELDS
Chauntea (Greater God)
Sheela Peryroyl (God)
- Arvoreen
- Brandobaris
- Cyrrollalee

HOUSE OF KNOWLEDGE
Oghma (Greater God)
- Milil
Gond (God)

THE NINE HELLS
Asmodeus (Greater God)
Baalzebul (Archdevil)
Bel (Archdevil)
Belial (Archdevil)
Dispater (Archdevil)
Glasya (Archdevil)
Levistus (Archdevil)
Mammon (Archdevil)
Mephistopheles (Archdevil)

NISHREK
Gruumsh (Greater God)
- Bahgtru
- Obould Many-Arrows
- Shargaas
- Vaprak
Luthic (God)

THE SUPREME THRONE
Cyric (Greater God)

TOWERS OF NIGHT
Shar (Greater God)
Sseth (God)
Talona (God)
Zehir (God)

WARRIOR'S REST
Tempus (Greater God)
- Garagos
- The Red Knight
- Uthgar
- Valkur
Beshaba (God)

As for what happened to the gods that aren't listed, it's a long story. Some of them dead, and the list of the dead includes the following: Mystra, Azuth, Savras, Helm, Tyr, Haela Brightaxe, Gorm Gulthyn, Kiaransalee, Selvetarm, Vhaeraun, Eilistraee, etc.

Others turned out to have been facets of other gods. Sehanine Moonbow, for instance, was actually Selune. Talos was actually Gruumsh. Yondalla was actually Chauntea.

Others, like the Mulhorandi Pantheon, found their worshippers transported away from Faerun, and went with them.

As for the rest, gods like Shaundakul, Nobanion, and Gwaeron Windstrom, there's no word on their fate. They may have simply been left out for the sake of brevity, or they may be dead. Their fate remains up in the air (although Nobanion nearly found a place within current lore, but ended up being excised for whatever reason).