suggestions for a dualwielding rogue?

[giuggiolo]

Hi guys, I'm thinking about a dualwielding rogue with weapon finesse, a sneaky character focusing on sneak attacks and avoiding damage. Maybe a human for the extra feat... I'm not so prepared with d&d rules so if you have any suggestions about features, skills and weapons of choice (maybe 2 shortsword or 2 handaxe) I'll be very happy to have your feedback.

[euphoric]

best to use 2 light weapons,

i suggest kukris for the hich crit ranges
but daggers would do,
however if you want to dual wield rapiers they can be quite good too
Short swords i havent tested but i believe they carry the "extra penalties for larger weapons"

Dont quote me on that, but monkey grip feat should help


As for skills,

Max hide and move silently,
bluff, appraise, diplomacy and intimidation are quite handy too,
but just max out your usual rogue skills,
ie. open locks, disable traps, tumble, Use magic Device etc

Dont bother with Set trap skill, its pretty useless

Feats you will want will be stealthy and weapon finesse (always have a high dex rogue)
Dodge
Mobility
Spring Attack
Stealthy
and any others that you will think you need

I also suggest multiclassing with a Shadowdancer,
Hide In Plain Sight comes in very very handy ;)

[cal1s]

wielding two rapiers with improved critical skill is deadly :)

[giuggiolo]

I agree with your skills suggestions but I think shortswords and handaxes are light and don't suffer any penalties, which is the case of rapiers (1h weapons->penalty for off-hand). Kukri should be nice but I'd need a martial proficiency and I'd lose a precious feat point. I think I have to choose 2 weapons of the same type to minimize the relative features (improve criticals...etc).
Btw do you suggest me something like two weapons defense and related?

[euphoric]

wielding two rapiers with improved critical skill is deadly :)

Dont forget power crit too ;)

I believe kukris have the same crit range as the rapiers, but they need the extra exotic feat to use :(

I always waste a feat getting that though.. :P

[euphoric]

Btw do you suggest me something like two weapons defense and related?

Id suggest it, yes,
but all depends on how high your dex will be and if you gonna wear armor etc...
if you have high enough dex, you probably wont need it ;)

[anobe]

Don't forget the possibility of using a mace as well, it's a rogue weapon and concidered small....lots of skellies in the game.

[giuggiolo]

mmmm double maces :D cool...but handaxe have a x3 critical and maces only x2 without a wider range (only straight 20). on the other side rapiers get a fantastic 18-20 x2 but there always the offhand problem...I think I'll stick to shortswords or handaxes or daggers :cool:

the problem are features: I'd need too many...

and btw I have another doubt: is it useful to get worry about criticals? you know when I'll have a critical chance I will place a nice sneak attack instead of a critical hit, am I right?
from this point of view I could avoid improved critical or power critical but maybe I'm completely wrong, like I said I am trying to compensate my ignorance about D&D rules with nwn2 manual...Thanks a lot for helpin' me.

[euphoric]

Don't forget the possibility of using a mace as well, it's a rogue weapon and concidered small....lots of skellies in the game.

Maces suck! lol

I dont know why but i hate them sooo bad :eek:

[giuggiolo]

Maces suck! lol

I dont know why but i hate them sooo bad :eek:

:D nice scientific confutation of pros and cons :D

[euphoric]

:D nice scientific confutation of pros and cons :D

Just call me Einstein :p

[giuggiolo]

another doubt: how many features can choose a 20lvl rogue?

cause I'd like to take: two-weapon fighting (TWF), Improved TWF, two-weapon defense (TWD), and Improved TWD and maybe Greater TWF...can I have more? less?

[wandaien]

it depends on what race you are... some races, like humans, get extra feats per level... something to think about..

[giuggiolo]

The problem now is finding the right balance between rogue's special feats (after 10th lvl) and dualwielding competences, considering I'll have 8 feats available (with human and strongheart hafling)...which are the ones to be taken? :rolleyes:

[McPhearsom]

I find rogues come in two flavours, either the thief or the assassin (i'm not talking prestige classes here). Either you focus on improving your skills/self so you can bypass any obstacle and deal with any situation or you focus on dealing as much damage as quickly as possible.

If you go the combat route (which is obviously the recommended for the campaign since the whole singleplayer game is based around fighting things) then I recommend you get weapon finesse as early as possible folowed by the two weapon fighting feats. At level 10 you should go with improved evasion since it is very very useful, especially since you're likely to be the focus of attacks and most AoE spells thrown at you are reflex based, this also means you can have party members throw fireballs at you without being damaged. Any rogue should have the fighters soak up the damage while you use hit and run attacks. You can dual wield anything up to rapier in size with no penalty, with light/tiny weapons in each hand your attack bonus is the same for off-hand attacks and with the extra attacks you get, that's a lot of potential sneak attacks. For some silly reason weapons like maces and clubs are finesse too (yet staffs and katanas aren't) so you can even use those, especially if you find some nice ones that have bonuses.

Remember to pick the feats you will be using most at lower levels, for example it is pointless saving weapon finesse for a later choice since you'l spend all those levels unable to hit anything, equally there's no point chosing two weapon fighting if you mostly use a bow.

Improved initiative is a feat worth looking at too, good for any pure combat types, basically it decides who attacks first and for rogues this means you can hit enemies with sneak attacks instantly before they can defend themselves. Slippery mind is also worth looking at since it doubles your chance to save a mind affecting spell/effect. Oppertunist 'can' be good in singleplayer due to the useless AI always giving attacks of oppertunity, however you're really scraping the barrel if you pick a feat that is useful because of 'exploiting' bad coding. In PvP or even later updates or other modules it's likely you will get few such attacks if any at all. I'm used to playing NWN on hardcore and PW servers that generally have much improved PvE so it's always good practice to go for feats that are sure to work in any situation so you don't rely on things that may not always be there. Remember though that feats like slippery mind are totally useless if you can use an item/spell that grants immunities.

I find that weapon specific feats for a rogue can be trouble, I tend not to use them because as a rogue you'll likely have a variety of 'tools' to use depending on what you're fighting and if something does hit you with disarm you're unlikely to resist it so backup weapons are essential which will likely all be different, unless of course you craft lots of different versions of a single weapon type (fire/cold/acid/etc).

Generally speaking though, if you want a character who slices and dices with a weapon in each hand and can take on anything in a fight then i'm sorry to say that rogue is not the right class, pick fighter/barbarian/ranger instead. Rogues want to avoid any 'fighting' at all costs so you want quick deaths, not hack and slash fights. Higher attack bonus is more useful than higher crit damage/chance to a rogue since if you can hit the enemy, you can sneak attack them which is guarenteed if they can't see you, crits are all by chance and you still have to hit them first, also anything immune to sneaks is immune to crits too (unless you face a very high level rogue/assassin/shadowdancer type) so all you have to rely on is your Attack Bonus. Sneak attacks can also bypass some damage resistance too (since you hit their 'weak spot') it is unlikely that a crit will do enough to pass high damage resitance unless you are doing magical damage in which case that hurts them on each successful hit anyway.

One final note: lvl 20 rogues don't get anything special at the end, lvl 19 is the last of the rogue feats so you have one level 'spare' which you could invest in assassin or shadowdancer (earlier than level 20 since you want to actually use whatever bonuses they give). Assassin gives you an extra sneak attack with a chance to paralyse with a few extras like poison weapon/poison save and shadowdancer gives hide in plain sight which is very useful for getting extra sneak attacks against a group of enemies or just to stop them attacking you.

[giuggiolo]

thx for your exhaustive overview :)

[AuRon Tindarius]

The two weapon defence feats would be a nice addition to augment your AC...also consider crafting a mithral breastplate.....the mithral makes it "light" armor and therefore wearable by your thief and it also bumps the max dex bonus of the armor to +5. Enchant it for more defence or other properties.

[zamiel]

I would try a ranger(11)/rouge(9). Surely it will not have as high sneak attack bonus, but would get the two-weapon fighting feats for free. And since he does not have to meet the requirements (dex 19), you may have lower dex and more strength or con. Also it can have kukris. The main reason of the higher strength is that to use knockdown, since fallen enemies are considered flatfooted and you can sneak attack them as much as you like. This build is more durable (higher ac, +44 hp, better attack bonus and +1 attack/round), can have some nice spells, however it has only 5d6 sneak attack bonus instead of 11d6.
Also, it is worth mentioning, that the engine behaves a little bit strange: it divides your no. of attacks to 3 parts, for example if you have 7 attacks (4 main, 3 off), you will attack 3,2,2 in each part of the round. Sneak attack will work on the first part, so higher no. of attacks (actually only from 6 to 7, from 3 to 4 matters really) and higher sneak attack bonus really pays off. So with a maxed out sneak attack you will attack around 6/round, which means you have +22d6 sneak damage (on your first 2 attacks). With the other build you will have +15d6 sneak damage. And probably much better chance to score a knockdown and have +35d6 sneak damage:)

[McPhearsom]

Dividing the attacks up is normal in NWN. Each 6 second round is divided into 2 second turns. 3 turns a round, 10 rounds a minute. This is probably to improve combat since otherwise only the first attack would be a sneak attack so it would make no difference if you had 1 attack a round or 7 as only the first would do the sneak attack. The attacks do not fire always at the same though, you'll notice that you don't always attack like clockwork, sometimes it's delayed which is the result of deciding who attacks first or dodging attacks but overall it is divided equally. The combat animations don't really show it off but it's in the logs. Kukris are a good choice for two weapon fighting, they're probably the best small weapon you can have although they require the martial feat (not the exotic feat they needed in NWN). Lightweight and with a good critical chance thrown in.

You might want to watch your multiclass penalty for your race though, if neither ranger or rogue or any other standard classes you want to mix are preferred then you'll suffer a penalty. Prestige classes have no penalty so if you want sneak attacks without going rogue you could go assassin although I don't see any need to go Rogue/Assassin unless you want the assassin abilities so bad you'll happily swap skills and rogue feats to get them. Ranger/Assassin seems better if you are worried about multiclassing.

Still it is always funny to see a kama monk with 10 attacks per round in NWN, that is 4, 3, 3... crazy, I think they sorted out the rules a bit in NWN2 though.


And it's "Rogue" dammit :o

[Patrick_Day]

Shadowdancer at level 10 is the way to go. With HIPS every one of your first attacks is a sneak attack. So it would be attack then HIPS then attack then HIPS etc...

[blix]

I would try a ranger(11)/rouge(9). Surely it will not have as high sneak attack bonus, but would get the two-weapon fighting feats for free. And since he does not have to meet the requirements (dex 19), you may have lower dex and more strength or con. Also it can have kukris. The main reason of the higher strength is that to use knockdown, since fallen enemies are considered flatfooted and you can sneak attack them as much as you like. This build is more durable (higher ac, +44 hp, better attack bonus and +1 attack/round), can have some nice spells, however it has only 5d6 sneak attack bonus instead of 11d6.
Also, it is worth mentioning, that the engine behaves a little bit strange: it divides your no. of attacks to 3 parts, for example if you have 7 attacks (4 main, 3 off), you will attack 3,2,2 in each part of the round. Sneak attack will work on the first part, so higher no. of attacks (actually only from 6 to 7, from 3 to 4 matters really) and higher sneak attack bonus really pays off. So with a maxed out sneak attack you will attack around 6/round, which means you have +22d6 sneak damage (on your first 2 attacks). With the other build you will have +15d6 sneak damage. And probably much better chance to score a knockdown and have +35d6 sneak damage:)

I like this build, but it is not a rogue anymore though. In my opinion this is a sneak attack melee-specialist. If you focus STR and you will still need some dex and con, you have little left for int. Especially if you are the wood elf (-2 INT)ranger. The rogue depends on INT almost as muck as DEX to max all his skills.
For this kind of build in NWN2-OC I would personally go for Ranger 12/NW9 4/Rogue 4. It got 19BAB, 4d4 sneak attack damage, 10% speed bonus, protective aura, and level 3 ranger spells (if you want). Take Ranger 11/ NW9 5 if you want the all out assault-ability instead :)

And to all rogue-builders: Remember, if there in the future expansions will be epic levels allowed (which I very much believe it will), and you want to continue your build as a rogue, FORGET STR.
A STR based rogue can not get any of the epic rogue abilities like epic dodge and self concealment (VERY high dex prerequesite). These feats makes rogues godlike and untouchable by meleers, they just cant hit them (if they don't stand still in front of them, which a good rogue never will do). The epic rogue only wear armor to look nice!

[couto]

There’s thought, could I make Neeshka a Two Weapon Fighter? Two rapiers sounds interesting. ;)

[lurchman]

If your playing a thief/rogue, can you have someone in the party forge you special weapons?

[McLenin]

Well if you mean in OC when Khelgar and Shandra can forge weapons and if you give the craft magic weapons and armor feat to Qara or Sand those can enchant them. So the answer is yes.